Big Coils
#1
I have wondered if there a point where a big whopping Attack coil has much of a performance benefit on a machine like my 7.81 KHz Minuteman. Or maybe I'm asking more if there is a working range between the size of a coil and the KHz  -power of of a detector.
If frequency even related to the power of a detector.
             I will be sitting in the corner with my dunce cap on waiting for an answer. LOL
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#2
puts on his cap and goes to the corner too.
bounty hunter tracker 4 bounty hunter land ranger pro
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#3
Higher kHz (19+) will be more sensitive to smaller objects...thus usually used for gold detectors.  

 Mid range (10-15) machines used as "all rounders".   

Lower kHz (5-9) usually better on high conductors like silver...thus used for most coin shooters. 

So it is not necessarily a "power" thing really.....that would be more on the Tx/Rx end.

As far as the coil...there is a point where size will not equate to more depth and the point of diminishing return is met.  Each detector will be different.  15 inches is usually the "marker" where no further increase will be gained on most detectors.
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Teknetics = T2 Classic - G2+ - Patriot - Liberator 
Fisher = F75+ 
Bounty Hunter = Land Ranger Pro - Tracker 4
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#4
Thanks Hunter, Just wondering . If coils were a dime a dozen we would probably all have a shelf full of them.
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#5
Air tests using an "attack" coil on my 19 khz G2+ showed the biggest improvements on low and mid conductors.  These are already the strong suits of the 19 khz platform.  So I am guessing that the greatest gains in depth might be appropriate to the frequency of the detector you put the larger coil onto.  Just theory,  I'll  take any opinions or experience on it.    ??? detecting
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#6
(12-27-2018, 09:26 AM)DOUBLE D Wrote: Air tests using an "attack" coil on my 19 khz G2+ showed the biggest improvements on low and mid conductors.  These are already the strong suits of the 19 khz platform.  So I am guessing that the greatest gains in depth might be appropriate to the frequency of the detector you put the larger coil onto.  Just theory,  I'll  take any opinions or experience on it.    ??? detecting

That is one heck of a deal your offering with that coil.
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#7
You are welcome to it . PM me if you want to discuss farther.
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#8
well i did learn something here. i don't really see a big coil in my future. with the LRP and stock coil i am digging deep enough holes already thank you. might be an advantage where fill dirt was put down though.`raining here yesterday and so far today another video games day.
bounty hunter tracker 4 bounty hunter land ranger pro
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#9
(12-27-2018, 10:50 AM)oldtimerocker52 Wrote: well i did learn something here. i don't really see a big coil in my future. with the LRP and stock coil i am digging deep enough holes already thank you. might be an advantage where fill dirt was put down though.`raining here yesterday and so far today another video games day.

I need a game day myself.  The holiday rush followed by right back to work has me burned out a little.
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#10
Frequency doesn't have anywhere near as much to do with depth penetration as pure transmit power that the detector is sending through the coil.
They are all different in this respect too.
My F2 could hit about 7-8" with the 8" concentric coil in good Kansas soil, using a 10" concentric maybe a bit deeper but getting clearer signals on my normal 4-5-6" target depth range was what that larger coil was best at.
Even though the big 11" DD coil on that unit has been known to go a bit deeper sometimes, maybe up to 10" or more , you are still limited by the detector and its raw power and abilities.
My F70 is way more powerful,  in that same great dirt using the 10" elliptical concentric I could easily hit 10" targets with good ID's, the 5" sniper could match that and go further. ..I got several signals with depth readings at 12" and even a bit more that I usually didn't go after because I was in public park settings.
 The 11" DD was even deeper, the deepest target I ever went after was a measured 15" also with a solid signal and ID.
 The F2 couldn't come close to these numbers no matter how big a coil I put on there, it just didn't have the power.
You can take a Chevette and put all the bling on it you possibly can but it will never match a Cadillac in power, comfort or anything else...it wouldn't match even a mid level vehicle, either.
I never saw the sense of using an entry level machine and then spending the same amount or more money on expensive big coils trying to get high end performance.
More logical to save that money and put it towards a higher, upper level unit with more features and power to get a noticeable difference in performance.

Then there are soil conditions to consider.
Mineralized dirt is tougher to deal with, trust me I know, using larger coils trying to get more depth or at least better signals on deeper targets can backfire on you because that bigger coil is also reading more minerals and noise from the ground and can make things very noisy and confusing.
Like high beams in thick fog using bigger coils and sometimes more power might actually be a disadvantage.
Overall I get pretty much the same limited depth here in the mineralized and iron infested SE. using all my coils on the F2.
I had a Vaq too, the thing could hit tiny targets almost a foot deep in neutral, non mineralized tot lot wood chips but in most of the dirt around here my 5" concentric, my 10" concentric and the 10x12" DD were all really close in the depth I could reach with signals that made sense.
Way more limited depth anywhere around my area than what I saw in Kansas, too...anything past 5-6" around here using most any detector is usually a gift.
I had high hopes for that big DD coil when I got it, it was not only bigger than the standard concentric but it was a DD too which was supposed to work better in hotter soil.
I was disappointed for the most part using it here in the south, the mineralization and iron  in the dirt was like a fog clouding and hiding most deeper targets no matter what I tried, all metal, low disc, supertuning or anything else.
Now out in Kansas there was a difference in performance between the three coils, the biggest one was deeper  with maybe a little more solid signals in deeper targets but it was never a shocking difference by any means...they all worked great in that better soil.
My F70 here in the south  has noticed my deepest targets I have ever found, nothing spectacular but up to 8" maybe 9" on a few and I did that with both the 5" DD sniper and the 11" DD.
I also have a larger than the 11" DD Cors coil, same deal as the Vaq...I am glad I have it and you never know because one day at the right site under the right conditions that bigger size might just make a difference but generally there isn't a whole lot of advantage over what I already had in the arsenal.
Most of that success around here with the F70 was due to me learning a new language and some strange behavior patterns plus a few much needed higher end features and settings that broke the code and enabled me to figure out certain repeatable but still very odd behavior on deeper targets, the coils I use not so much.
As much as I loved my F2 I am sure that even with the biggest, baddest coil I could ever mount in that thing it could never come close to matching what I could do or what I actually did find using the much more powerful F70 and any coil including snipers.
I learned in that snipers just work better here, less noise and interference and better more noticeable signals when moving the coil around this hotter dirt.
Now I got a Nox with the standard and a sniper coil and guess what, same deal, the standard coil was good but the smaller sniper coil just seems to work better with better unmasking abilities in the sites I usually hunt and that is the one that is mounted and will probably stay in the bottom of my rod for the foreseeable future.
 The 15" Nox coil is available now but I have no plans to ever get one as long as I live and hunt here, I am positive it won't help me much more than the two coils I already have and I sure won't spend the coins to find out just to be disappointed...again.

What I learned in my travels is despite my fondness for snipers because of the things I stated here and success levels using them it still comes down to the basic detector features more than coils.
A feature rich more powerful detector will trump a lower end less powerful machine with less settings available every time...no matter what coils you choose to use.


So to recap...
On paper larger coils are said to penetrate deeper and DD coils are supposed to deal with mineralization better than concentrics but I have hunted for thousands of hours using all  types of coils and so many sizes of coils in both some really hot challenging dirt and close to the best dirt you can ever hope to hunt and there is way more to it than that in the real world.
Soil and site conditions really matter and can and will make a huge difference.
Then there is basic, raw transmit power between all kinds of detectors.
If you think that all detectors have the same available, useable power range from entry level to top end then I have a sale on some pretty nice looking bridges we need to talk about.

Basically it is just about trying stuff and see what works in your dirt and sites which might be way different with totally different results than another hunter in a different geographic location.
Do it logically using common sense and you have a much better shot at wasting less money spinning your wheels looking for that perfect magic combination trying to achieve the most success.
"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#11
A you tube video was showing a Garrett AT pro using a NEL Tornado coil,outshining a Deus,Nox 800,and another detector I cant seem to recall....14-15 inches in a test bed. Then I saw the price of that coil...nah. Cool
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#12
Frequency controlling depth was not my meaning. More over that the larger coil itself could enhance the machines natural frequency advantages to certain metals.  Advantages referring to Hunters post. And as for the which machine is better , or is it better to buy a coil or new machine ?  I'm with Rocker on that one . It's a personal choice.
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#13
Right now I think setting good with what I have detector wise. Learning to dig more mid tones or a little more of the" dig it all" way of thinking will give me the best return on my efforts.
  
 Oh and replacing my shovel I left behind last week. It grew legs and walked away. Real glad it was a $10.00 special from the Cheapo Depot.
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#14
(12-27-2018, 03:47 PM)FunGus Wrote: Right now I think setting good with what I have detector wise. Learning to dig more mid tones or a little more of the" dig it all" way of thinking will give me the best return on my efforts.
  
 Oh and replacing my shovel I left behind last week. It grew legs and walked away. Real glad it was a $10.00 special from the Cheapo Depot.

Sounds like a winner to me........keep on digging  Thumbs_up
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#15
(12-27-2018, 02:09 PM)DOUBLE D Wrote: Frequency controlling depth was not my meaning. More over that the larger coil itself could enhance the machines natural frequency advantages to certain metals.  Advantages referring to Hunters post. And as for the which machine is better , or is it better to buy a coil or new machine ?  I'm with Rocker on that one . It's a personal choice.

I see what you are saying.      

So the F19 as the example...it is great on mid-conductors.   The increase there over a high conductor like copper or silver is already there from the frequency of the machine...and the way the machine was engineered around that frequency for its particular purpose (gold prospecting in this case as the F19 is based off the 19khz Gold Bug Pro).  

So since a mid-conductor hits better than a high-conductor on a F19....a larger coil would keep that trend going based on the detector itself...but still give an increase to both conductor zones from the sheer size increase of the coil itself. 

So if the larger coil gives a gain of 2 inches on a nickel.....would a silver quarter see a 2-inch increase as well....or would it see a smaller gain being a high conductor?

That I would have to test...and since I don't use such large coils (the stock is plenty big for me)...I am not 100% on that.  However, i do not think the higher conductor would see the same increase.  I think it would be less.   

I could check and see the differences between the 5in and 11DD if ya like....that would show if it is linear or a curve of some sort.   I'm sure I have data and video footage of such results in my "review" playlist on YouTube...but I am unsure off the top of my head.   Reading all of this...it should be something I just "know" but for some reason don't.  Sorry.
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Teknetics = T2 Classic - G2+ - Patriot - Liberator 
Fisher = F75+ 
Bounty Hunter = Land Ranger Pro - Tracker 4
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